I’m delighted to have on the podcast this week Jo Twiselton, human change specialists, executive coach, facilitator and consultant. Jo is also a qualified executive and wellbeing coach.

She works with leaders, managers and teams, who want help during times of upheaval, and she does this through her business Twist Consultants. Jo’s worked with lots of people over the years, she has worked across tech transport, healthcare, media, and service industries, helping them create change for the better for many, many years. By focusing on the fundamentals of human change, Jo’s specific approach is designed to help minimise organisation disruptions in times of change. And we talk about everything today, mostly about Jo’s squiggly career and how that can lead to really rounded skill sets. She talks about what big changes and how any kind of change can affect people in an organisation. Plus, she shares some tips and links with us all that Jo has her own podcasts coming out in 2024.

Let’s dive in.

How to get in touch with me:


LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jotwiselton/

Twitter/X – @jotwis

Links  mentioned in this episode:

Twist Consultants Wellbeing and Change Report



Further info:

Wraw (Workplace Resilience and Wellbeing): https://www.twistconsultants.co.uk/resilience-wellbeing


Health and Safety Executive – 6 management standards – https://www.hse.gov.uk/stress/standards/


Get started on improving listening skills (blog post): https://www.twistconsultants.co.uk/blog/want-to-improve-your-listening-skills-and-have-better-conversations-this-might-help?rq=listening

Wellbeing and resilience report for SMEs:


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Full Transcript (Unedited)

Emma Drake 0:02
You’re listening to the latest episode of the communication strategy that works podcast with me, Emma Drake. Hi, everyone. How are we all doing today? I hope you’re doing okay. So I’m delighted to have on the podcast this week Joe Twiselton, human change specialist, executive coach, facilitator and consultant. And Joe is a qualified executive and wellbeing coach. And she works with leaders and managers and teams, who wants to have helped during times of upheaval, and she does this through her business twist consultants, Joe’s worked with lots of people over the years, she has worked across tech transport, healthcare, media, and service industries, helping them create change for the better for many, many years. And by focusing on the fundamentals of human change, Joe specific approach is designed to help minimise organisation disruptions in times of change. And we talk about everything today mostly about Joe squiggly career and how that can lead to really rounded skill sets. When it comes to dealing with corporate communication and change and other areas of communication, strategic comms across the business. She talks about what big changes and how any kind of change can affect people in an organisation. Plus, she shares some tips and links with us all that Joe has her own podcasts coming out in 2024. Very exciting. I’ve actually been helping her with this as well. It’s called the change for the better podcast. And that contains bite sized insights, experience and advice on a range of topics linked to organisational change. And it’s designed to help people to better navigate the wobbly world that we’re in. So without further ado, let’s dive in. So welcome Joe to the podcast. It’s really super exciting to have you on because we’ve talked about this for a really, really, really, really, really long time. And it hasn’t happened and now it’s happening, which is very exciting. So why don’t you start by just telling listeners today a little bit about twist consultants, and how you got into change communications and and well being.

Jo Twiselton 2:06
So first of all, it’s lovely to be here and having this conversation. And you’re right. We have talked about this for a very long time. So it’s going to be a really interesting conversation. I hope. So twist Consultants is actually 19 years old this month, which can’t quite believe Wow. Yeah, I know.

Emma Drake 2:28
So anyway,

Jo Twiselton 2:31
so I pause. I started twist in August 2004. So I’ve got my math right. And, and then it was me, working with organisations using the skills that I’d got from PR and communications, which was my in house career. So if a backpedal a bit, because sometimes I think it’s really helpful for other people to hear that we don’t start on this linear path of a being at school and going like going to do business and communications and going all the way through. Because that doesn’t happen for everybody. Yeah. So that’s how it happened for me. So I’ve actually a French graduate. So I did French in history. For my degree. I did a postgraduate in college, I remember what it was secretarial studies. There you go. I learned how to take shorthand and tight which had been fantastic skills. There you go. The most useful things I think I’ve ever learned in my entire academic career.

Emma Drake 3:36
100%. Yeah. So

Jo Twiselton 3:39
went to be a PA after that. And gradually, I was working with someone who was doing, she was the head of marketing. And I really was really interested in what she was doing. So that was my first job. And then I moved to Nokia, in the late 90s. Sorry, early 90s. And then I that continuation of excitement and interest in marketing and communications specifically really piqued. So it took me another couple of years, I took my chest Institute of marketing diploma. And then try to look for a marketing job. There weren’t any Nokia in the UK and I didn’t have the experience in that field. So I couldn’t, I didn’t, I wasn’t able to find a role in there. So I applied for a job in Helsinki, in Nokia in Helsinki, and that’s how I ended up moving over there in 94, I think and that’s my first comms job. And that’s really where my comms career started. So through that I worked as a writer I got involved in external and media comms corporate communication, which for any an it’d be really good to get your insight on this as well. Mr. So corporate communication kind of sometimes is a bit of a dark art, but it’s All of those aspects, isn’t it? Plus? Yeah,

Emma Drake 5:02
absolutely. I think you get a very rounded set of skills, don’t you? When you have that background? I know I’ve seen you don’t you do a bit of everything.

Jo Twiselton 5:12
And you get really good visibility of how a business runs as well. Absolutely.

Emma Drake 5:15
And really good visibility of senior leadership as well.

Jo Twiselton 5:20
That’s it. Yeah. And what works and what doesn’t. So Nokia,

Emma Drake 5:24
for people listening that haven’t been around, as long as Joe and I really old mobile phone company, company, but they made some of the earliest versions of mobile phones. So we all have Nokia as the Nokia phone, didn’t they? I mean, no, it was, indeed, the brand that you worked for, at the time was huge.

Jo Twiselton 5:46
Yeah, it was a very cool brand to work for a very big organisation, and it still is so

Emma Drake 5:53
so what brought you to change? Then what brought you sort around from this broad career in corporate communications and, and roles that that, you know, where you learn all these skills and sort of transitioning into consulting? And, and and did you did you spend some time in its internal communication specifically.

Jo Twiselton 6:15
So I, I was asked about six months into working for myself, if I help out on a project, which wasn’t badged as a change project. So I got started, and very quickly, was using all the skills that I don’t, that I’ve had. So all of that corporate stuff, corporate communication stuff was really what I was involved in. So it was a it was a big restructure, but it meant a transfer of employees from another organisation. So we’re in at the deep end, and really, in at the deep end, new branding, employee comes. But as about 2004, and a lot of people talk about change management now. And change is, is much more of a prolific thing that we talk about in business. But it wasn’t really badged as that it was kind of a thing that you did. And I’ve really noticed that sort of morphing really, over the years, it’s got much more visibility. Yeah, I

Emma Drake 7:22
think I think you’re right, there’s sort of changed was that the change would happen. And then people be there’d be internal communications to support the change, rather than it being this more integrated thing. Where you’re going through it and you know, a curve and a process. And it’s all of those things at the same time. And that was sort of almost sort of always separate, wasn’t it? separate pieces, and I really

Jo Twiselton 7:46
enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it, it was quite time pressured to get it done in a specific period. And I got really interested in what made people tick. And I think on reflection, that’s why I’ve been so interested in marketing all those years before, of what made people tick, how you how you talk to people to help them understand what’s going on. And that’s fundamentally what I found so interesting. So since then, I’ve worked on all sorts of different change. So mergers and acquisitions, dealing with big organisations, when they buy another one or two smaller organisations coming together. Where you’ve got, say, for example, a founder, who’s been in that organisation from the beginning. So how do you that’s a huge shift for those sorts of Yes.

Emma Drake 8:42
And so that’s, that’s what I’m what I’m more familiar with is when an organisation goes through a big change. So it goes from being a small company to a to a large business, or that you’re adding extra bits on or the structure changes completely, because the structure changes completely at that point. That’s why isn’t it we sort of found a lead being across everything, type organisation, so having different p&l departments and abroad in our board and accountability spread across the whole business. And that’s big change, isn’t it as well, for an organisation?

Jo Twiselton 9:17
It’s such a good point, and because it’s a big change for the organisation, that people in it, and it’s a huge change for the founder, as well. And I don’t know sometimes, if we recognise that shift for them as well, that, you know, they’ve, they’ve set this thing up, they’re really in it, it’s the baby for one of a better word, and it’s now changing. So, when we go through change, because we use the word change, like is bandied about so much. Change is the thing that happens to us, but the transition is what goes on inside us and that varies from person to person. So For, you know, if you, I, we, um, the pandemic is a fabulous example of this, I know, Labour on COVID. But everybody had a different experience of like, my work just stopped. And it’s like, right, what do I do now? Do I just sit in worry about it? Or do I talk to other people? Do I try and find work? You know, that whole transition of dealing with something quite quick. We all deal with that in a very different way. And understanding that is kind of at a core of understanding how people change, really. So So what are the sorts of

Emma Drake 10:40
you know, when people come to you for these sorts of things now? What sort of what point are they at? What what’s the, you know, for people listening? What, what’s the point at which, you know, because change could be anything, is what we’re saying in business. So what is the point at which people sort of recognise that reach out to sort of someone like yourself or

Jo Twiselton 11:01
similar. So, so my remit now is a bit broader than then delivering communications, because that’s where I started. So what tends to happen now is, there’s the pre emptive, where people recognise they’re in the habit of knowing that there’s a change, they know what it looks like. So they think we might need some support with this. And that could be anything from, we need a strategy, to understand how we need to communicate, we need to train managers or leaders to or coach them through what that actually is, and what good practice could look like, because some of them have never done it. And at the same time, they’ve got to deal with that emotional transition piece themselves as well. So you could get a manager who’s leading a change, who’s got to deliver something, that they might not be as comfortable with themselves. So they’ve got to make people redundant that might have I’m making this up, but they might have worked with them for like, 10 years. So you’ve got a team who’s quite stable. And now you’ve got to take your, your emotion out of the equation, and deal with this is much more transactional. So it’s, it’s how do you deal with that? So some of that piece, actually understanding what that transition piece looks like. So how people respond to whatever change might come. And then it’s also thinking about, so that’s the piece where people recognise it, and it becomes quite intentional about what they’re doing. Okay, the other bit is, is sort of emergent. So your piece is a really important one. So we don’t talk about growth very much as being a change. And especially,

Emma Drake 12:52
that’s been most of most of my experience of change projects, actually.

Jo Twiselton 12:56
There you go. Yeah, yeah. There’s a lot of so what what do you see when you see change happening in those sorts of organisations? What sort of responses do you see? Well, it was a while ago, but

Emma Drake 13:12
I mean, I’ve been I’ve lost sort of worked, it’s probably when I worked in house. And actually one of the, one of the examples is probably, I think, I worked for a credit card company, a startup credit card company, and I think I was, you know, less than the 50th person to join. And the company invented the balance transfer, it was that long ago, there was a few companies and they worked out that they could entice people by offering balance transfer rates, so that was a, that was a big thing.

And it grew enormously from

there. So things that affect that change was, you know, we need to, we need to be able to train a lot of people very quickly, so systems and processes had to change. The type of building we need has changed, because we need a big call centre, you know, that’s, that’s a capital asset, you know, are you going to build it? Are you going to buy a get a real, okay, these are all huge changes. You know, the marketing aspect, and the data management of the marketing aspect changed enormously. And needing senior people very, very senior people in those types of roles meant that the board became much bigger, with lots of different people with lots of power for for huge teams, you know, data and acquisition was a huge team. So, so I think it fixed everything really. So systems and processes, you know, affects how you work. So the how you would work with your small team is completely different to how you would have a process to deal with, you know, a team of 35 to 50 instead of five. So, you know, and it’s not for everybody, you lose people at that point, people don’t want the big organisation field I want this to keep that smaller organisational feel. So I think emotionally people can struggle to move on in those situations as well, can’t they? Yeah, yeah. And the founder piece. I’ve worked with some founders in the Cambridge tech sector. And you know, some are very good at letting go and, and growing. And some can’t. Yeah, and you know, that you can see that you see the difference in the size of the some of the companies where that where the change has been allowed to happen, and where the change hasn’t been allowed to happen.

Jo Twiselton 15:37
And that’s fundamentally it’s, it’s, if you if you allow it to happen in an intentional, planned way, when you can’t account for everything can you know, but recognising that you’re going to have to, if you’re, if you’re following this strategy, it means more buildings, more assets more, there’s more that, Ben, you can start thinking about the people piece, because a lot of where I get involved is, there’s a lot of system and process thinking particularly with IT projects. But the people piece is like, Oh, by the way, we need this and you think, no, no, you should have started with that really at the beginning, but we are where we are so. So yeah, the three legs of that stool are really important.

Emma Drake 16:25
So how was how was because one of the things that you do now is, I know you’ve spent a long time improving, or creating services and working with companies around well being in change. And is that is that is that is that there sort of you tell us a bit more about that about that? Is that the people aspects of that change?

Jo Twiselton 16:48
So it’s part of it. So that communication aspect really falls into the wellbeing piece for me? Because if you do communication, right, and it’s not only in change, but if you do communication, right, people have greater awareness of what’s going on, they are able to make decisions for themselves, they can ask questions, they feel that they have some kind of control over what’s happening, which when you get change happening, sometimes at at high speed, it can feel like you have no control over anything. So that engagement piece and communication piece for me is really key as part of that well being paste. And I did some research back in 2021, with 13, CD leaders just to ask them around wellbeing and organisational change, communication came up in every single one of those conversations. So whether it’s structured, email, whatever communication channel you use, or it’s informal, like having good conversation regularly with people, it doesn’t matter. It’s the engagement and having the conversation that really counts. So that’s how the communication piece set me on the wellbeing path. And now, it’s basically for me, it’s a fundamental, and it’s not just me saying it. So the Health and Safety Executive have organisational changes one of their six key standards. Oh, really? Yeah. So yeah, it’s not just me banging on about it. To be fair, so

Emma Drake 18:30
do you do find that it’s that people are up for that sort of big change in terms of investment to people wants to invest in? In people? Do organisations want to invest in people? Have you seen any changes there post pandemic? And in terms of what you know, and how much people would invest in that process?

Jo Twiselton 18:57
That’s a really good question. So what I typically see, again, be good to get your view on this. So we go, we’ve gone through the pandemic, we had a bit of a, okay couple of years, and now we’re in that slightly, not quite recessive period, but a cut back on spending. But it’s where you make the investment for the longer term. So if you think that you want to do change, without doing some sort of assessment of where how ready people are or your organisation is to change, where you might need training. So quite again, back to the systems and process piece, if you think about a big it change. So for your listeners, if there’s, you know, there’s a big change if an HR system that that that happens. So you’re you’ve got to teach people how to use that system. They’ve got to let go of what they know from before. They need to understand what’s next. not going to change, but they also need to understand what is going to change both in the way that they use the system, and the processes that might change around it. So that that whole systems and process piece. But there’s also the piece about, if we don’t invest in exploring where people are, in terms of the change itself, and understanding how they can keep their energy levels up, how they feel aligned to the strategy, how connected they feel to the organisation and the values. If you don’t invest in that, then and understand where where you are, then you could be in an interesting situation, the other side of the change, which is why the communications piece is so important as well. So what role does cert strategic

Emma Drake 20:50
communications play in that then, because there’s, there’s quite a lot of business skills that you’ve got that you’re applying to that a lot of strategy skills, in terms of managing big projects, and guiding and coaching people through leadership teams through that. So where does the strategic communications aspect fit in that, and I’m thinking of that, from the aspect of people listening are in, in House Communications teams, let’s say, and they know this change is taking place, and they are the one to roll in it or feel there should be more of a communications role in it, what,

Jo Twiselton 21:29
what are the sorts of things they can do?

Emma Drake 21:35
In their role in terms of strategic communications,

Jo Twiselton 21:39
there’s several things. And I’m a good example of that, because that’s how I’ve gone from moved out of doing tactical communication, in change, to more strategic stuff. So quite a bit of what I did was just read around the topic. So I did a lot of reading around emotional intelligence and empathy. And, you know, read looked at YouTube videos of that sort of stuff. So understanding the human aspect of it. So what are the fundamentals of human change that you really need to get your head around, and understanding where strategic communication can fit with that, an add value to the organisation and the change. So if you’re writing communication, for example, or you’re working with key stakeholders, there’s coaching skills are really invaluable here as well. So if you if you’ve got some awareness of the empathy, the emotional intelligence piece, influencing and impact skills with stakeholders, and that’s how I got into coaching, and then ended up becoming an executive coach, because if you ask the right questions, and listen, that’s where you can really add value, not just to your stakeholders, but to the people that you’re serving. To that, and being a really key part of that ecosystem. So there’s

Emma Drake 23:13
some, there’s some, I mean, I talked about skills a lot on the podcast, and depending on who’s on and talking, we talk about skills a lot, and what the essential skills are and

Unknown Speaker 23:24
empathy comes up all the time,

Emma Drake 23:27
as you can imagine, but I think, sometimes as communications, people were put in a box of, you know, content or, you know, even strategic content, but still doing doing stuff like writing or talking or, you know, creating art materials, or whatever it happens to be. And I think that this area is a really good example of where you need to elevate your skills and it’s not just, it’s not good enough to just be a really good writer or you know, those things that will stand you really well in your in your everyday job. There is some additional learning isn’t there there is your to elevate, you know, the negotiation skills, stakeholder skills, and then there are things that I have learned and I’ve, I’ve had roles in, as well, and I think you do, because part of it is you’ve got to get people from A to B, haven’t you and you you’ve got to be able to do that as a person as well as write the content. It’s not all about the written stuff. It’s you know, helping people understand what sort of communication we need to support the change, etc. And that’s a different skill, isn’t it rather than the day to day

Jo Twiselton 24:41
you’re spot on, absolutely spot on. So, a lot of changes taking people as you said from A to B so the From and To So, but skilled communicators will be able to advise if they’re asked or be able to work out how they can

Emma Drake 25:00
advice. Yeah. 100%

Jo Twiselton 25:04
best way to do that is so do you need to make friends with the CIO to be able to get the right Constanza? lately? Yeah. bunch of emails ain’t gonna cut into that circumstances. So, yeah, it’s it’s a lot of different, more human skills really?

Emma Drake 25:28
Yeah, there definitely are. There definitely are. And I think that in house background that we both have you do, you do develop a lot of that. Because you do have to have a lot of conversations you have a lot of internal stakeholders to deal with and keep happy. And I think I’ve noticed that as a really big difference between this is a massively sweeping statement, by the way, in my own opinion, but between agencies and people that have an in house background, is that sort of slight, slight edge on understanding what makes people tick across the other side of the desk? In that sense, because you’ve worked alongside some of these people, and help them on a day to day basis as an in house advisor. So yeah, it transitions really well to consultancy, I think,

Jo Twiselton 26:12
yeah, yeah. Yes, I did. I’ve done a series of, you know, quite long projects from anything from six months to 18 months, or I’ve been a guest in somebody else’s house helping them do that. And it’s the same thing. And I have a rule of thumb, that I also had a period gun, and I went back in house for a couple of years. So it’s the same thing applies is generally spent more time out of my seat than I did in it. So understanding what’s going on all the time, as well as delivering obviously, which can be balanced sometimes. But yeah,

Emma Drake 26:54
100% Yeah, it’s, yeah, that mean, that analogy is a really good one, you’ve got to be you got to be visible. And I think that’s the big challenge. I mean, what do you think about how I’m working from that perspective, then? I mean, it’s a huge challenge, isn’t it for? You know, because it does make a big difference. And this is not just only as communicators, I think I hear that a lot from the tech sector, actually, that they need to be, have those interactions in the lab space, they need to have those interactions in the office to get to spark creativity. creative agencies need to do that. It’s very difficult to do that from, like, you say that that analogy of you got to be out of your seat more than you’re in it and you’re home, you’re in your seat, aren’t you? You’re not advocacy, whether you’re virtually out of your seat, you’ve got to try and get people’s attention without walking up to the desk. What do you think about

Jo Twiselton 27:40
that? It’s, it’s a really good point. And, again, I keep using the word intentional. So if you’re, you know, when I was out of my seat more than I was at my desk, quite often, it was quite intentional of where I needed to go, who I needed to see. And it’s applying that same thinking to being more remote. So. So you and I, for example, we talk, don’t we and we bounce stuff off each other. Yep. Because we work on our own most of the time. And if I don’t have relationships like that, it tends to be a bit, you get a bit stuck. So if you have the opportunity to hybrid work, where you have the benefit of being in a focused working environment, even if you co work, so I did a session this morning, where I was with somebody else, and we were doing Pomodoro 25 minute sprints on a focus piece of work, we check in, have a break, and then start again. I’m just working with somebody on the end of zoom, but it means that we’ve got some level of accountability. So there’s an interaction as well. Exactly. And it’s like, Well, how was that? You know, did you get done what you said you were going to do between us at the start of the call and all of that sort of stuff? And I think, again, if he if you think I think what that has done for all of us is make it much more focused, intentional about how we need to do things. And really consider and and that goes across across wellbeing as well. So social connection is one of the most key points and things to consider for wellbeing. So that we’re human tribal individuals that we need to be in a gang. We want to connect. Yeah, some of us, some of us more than others.

Emma Drake 29:37
Exactly. But there’s levels right. But yeah, I mean, everyone needs that interaction and it is really important for wellbeing and mental health. And I noticed that myself, you know, just having that call or just getting out for that 10 minutes, even though it seems like a big effort at the time. So, so in terms of change, then I mean, I’ll just sort of flip flip back a little bit, I suppose.

Jo Twiselton 30:11
We’ve talked a bit about skills.

Emma Drake 30:13
We’ve talked about the role of wellness and well being, and strategic communications in change, and how we’re affected by change. So what I mean, we’ve talked about different types of change, but can change be quite small as well. Yep. So, you know, some people listening to this podcast will be in very small organisations.

Jo Twiselton 30:43
And secure this isn’t this doesn’t apply to me. What would you say to that? I would say it does. But I would say that would be well, yeah. That was a loaded question. Yeah. So there was some research, which I’ll send you a link to, which is for smaller businesses, and some of the examples they give in there are like 100 employees. Okay. regular team meetings, social events, recognition, so celebrating the wins, stuff in the community projects that they’ve done in the local community. Again, it’s that connection piece, but in talking, listening, all the things that we’ve just talked about, just on a different scale. So if you do or don’t want to scale up, if you want to stay as you are, then all of the things that I talk about really around, change around. If you’ve keep disruption down, really, if you’re engaging people, they understand what’s going on. And they understand what it means for them or they have the opportunity and they feel safe enough to ask the questions. If they don’t, you get less absenteeism and presenteeism. presenteeism where you’ve got people turning up when they’re not quite in 100% Health, you’ll get better performance, you get higher creativity, because you’ve just got people who liked working, they’d like commit they enjoy coming to work. Yeah. So I think it’s it keep that engagement app keep disruption down, but I don’t I think it applies to any sized organisation. Maybe probably one or two people might be a bit of a, you know, two man band or not. Equally, like you just said, as a one woman band, take yourself off for lunch, make sure you eat regularly, and you’re not seeing or you’d ask for too long.

Emma Drake 32:44
Yeah, and change happens all the time. So absolutely. I mean, you know, you were saying about the pandemic, and how our work changed. And we’ve talked about this, but I’ve talked about it on the podcast previously. But, you know, seismic change for me in terms of the types of clients, the types of work, how I earn money, you know, what people want, for the exchange of fees, you know, everything has changed. With some of that have changed anyway, maybe. But there was a fundamental shift that I didn’t plan. I think that’s the point. And, and I had to adapt and change. And I’m going to change at the moment is this I’ve got, you know, this growing pains and workflow and processes, and there’s only me to get my head around it, whether that’s you mean, there’s a couple of other people now a couple of people supporting me, but you know, it’s, it’s still change, isn’t it? Yeah.

Jo Twiselton 33:39
It’s something different. And what we’re also dealing with now, and I talked about this a lot, is a level of, we’re dealing with what’s in front of us, in our own worlds of you’ve just talked about, but we’ve also got this kind of hum of everything else going on in the world around us a level of uncertainty. And if you’re a leader, and you’re trying to navigate that, whether you’re in a big organisation or a smaller one, you know, you’ve got cost of living crisis, we’ve got all sorts of weird weather, climate change, challenges. You’ve got all that going on at the same time. Plus, and I’d argue that we’ve got a higher volume of it than we, we’ve had for a very long time. There was

Emma Drake 34:22
a only today actually, there was an article, I think it was by grayling, and PR week, talking about exactly that. And actually from the point of view that customers are disassociating from brands due to that the overwhelmed this sort of this the grey area around what you’re actually doing in front of you, which is just overwhelming, and noisy, and distracting. And I Yeah, we all feel that I think

Jo Twiselton 34:49
and this is where I find neuroscience fascinating in organisational change because we’re learning so much about the brain every day really, and about how it responds or how We respond to those sorts of things going on around us. I think I was listening to the rest is politics podcast yesterday, I think it was that with Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart in the UK. And they were saying that, and I’ll dig out the exact number, but I’m gonna say a number and it may not be absolutely right. But it’s somewhere in the 40%. Mark, people who don’t watch the news anymore, because yeah, I’ve heard that you just said, Yeah, too overwhelming, can’t deal with it. So if you’re in a marketing and communications role, you’ve got to no way should you be going out on multiple channels without constantly checking in with your old and

Emma Drake 35:36
so many. It’s absolutely right. I think it’s becoming more difficult to know where to go for things. And it used to be more, it used to be more straightforward. I’m sure. We’ve sort of, he’d know what feeds to look at, you’d know where it’s your information was coming from, it’s coming from everywhere. And I’m feeling that it’s almost quite hard to sort of keep up with actually, you know, and I Nish in one sector, and I still, yeah, it’s still overwhelming.

Jo Twiselton 36:09
I mean, we’ve had these conversations previously, it’s like, I’ve sent you a message and you say, Well, was it on WhatsApp? Was it on text, email, or LinkedIn message? I can’t actually remember. Yeah. And that’s only four things. Yeah, I know, tick tock, and what and whatever else into the equation? And

Emma Drake 36:26
yeah, I know, it’s really it’s really challenging. So many people I know are coming, inverted commas coming off social media for a bit, and I’m not far off, I have to say that the overwhelm hits and you have to, you have to be really mindful of that, I think. But obviously, foot three work. It’s very useful. And I have to stay tuned in and all of those things, but But yeah, changes changes. We’re evolving, aren’t we? And changes happening all the time because of that. And there’s, I talked about the operating context and, you know, as communicators, making sure that we’re in touch with the operating context of, we know how we’re operating what’s happening in the outside world, what’s changed? So how do we need to adapt as communicators to that change these external influences that we don’t have any control over, that we have to respond to? So not necessarily change communications, but just being really aware of your surroundings and having a check in every so often on? You know, whether what you’re doing is the right thing that used to be a time when you’d have a communication plan for 18 months? Oh, yeah, that does not exist anymore. Does it? Now this just doesn’t exist? It’s constant change is constant. Or you’ve I don’t know if it’s just me, but I just Yeah, I was trying to set a plan for a period of time, it’s getting shorter and shorter. I will six months with my Well, yeah, I’m in six months with my clients. So let’s review in six months. Yeah. Because there’s so many so many external factors affecting, you know, politically, economically, environmentally, all of the things that we’ve brought that sort of analysis of precedent, that’s all happening, that I’m not gonna say so that’s where my podcasts but that is real. Yeah.

Jo Twiselton 38:12
It’s when you were talking about skills, OMA, it’s not necessarily a skill as such. But it’s that you need to have that on your radar all the time. Constantly don’t get stuck in your, in your niche, your sector, your organisation, that you keep your head up to what else

Emma Drake 38:31
is the overwhelming bit, right, because you’re constantly on it constantly. Always stuff. Yep.

Jo Twiselton 38:37
And you’ve got to see it coming. We’ve got elections in this country next year. So we know that that’s going to have a reverb all the way back

Emma Drake 38:44
already talk it. Yeah. I mean, all this year plans. Yeah, yeah. focused on what that will affect that. But yeah, so yeah, changes all around us. Yep. And I think that that’s a good, it’s a good place to. Yes. before we, before we quiver in a heap, Joe.

Jo Twiselton 39:06
Oh, no, never. No, no, no, we don’t do that.

Emma Drake 39:10
Oh, look, it’s been fantastic having you on the podcast after such a long time of talking about it. And thank you so much for sharing your opinions and insights with everybody. I’ll add your links to the show notes for everyone listening. But yeah, thanks very much for coming on show.

Jo Twiselton 39:28
Oh, thank you. Can I just say one more thing, just really small thing?

Emma Drake 39:33

Jo Twiselton 39:35
None of this wellbeing stuff needs to be big, expensive programmes. Think small. Think what you would like if somebody if it would be nice for you to have more of a conversation with other people in different offices or in different teams. How can you make that happen? So really small steps. That’s and that’s where communication wins, but Listening, talking to people? I can’t kind of and I can’t say enough about that.

Emma Drake 40:07
Well, thanks very much for that. I do usually ask people for what they’re the three things. So I forgot. So thanks for that. That was really helpful. Really helpful prompts to leave people with actually yeah.

Jo Twiselton 40:21
And if anybody is interested in measuring where their teams are, or they are, in terms of their own well being then I work with a psychometric called workplace resilience and well being, which can help individuals and teams so. And, again, I’ll share more information on that. So that yeah, we’ll pop those links show notes.

Emma Drake 40:41
Fantastic. Thanks so much, Joe. Take care. Thank you. If you enjoyed today’s episode, don’t forget to check my show notes for those links that I mentioned, where you can also subscribe to my podcast. Leave me a review and there are also links to my training courses that you may be interested in. And don’t forget, if you really enjoyed this episode, please share it with your own networks.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai